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An Interview with Robert Camp, Author of Love Cards and Destiny Cards The Spiritual Traveler
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 I spoke on the phone with Robert Lee Camp, author of Love Cards, Destiny Cards,
and other books based on the ancient science behind our common deck of
playing cards. This subject was first explored in modern
times by Olney H. Richmond in The Mystic Test Book, published in 1894, and elaborated on in Sacred Symbols of the Ancients, by Florence Campbell and Edith Randall, in 1947, and in Arne Lein’s 1978 book, What’s Your Card? According
to Campbell and Randall, the mystical significance of the fifty-two
cards and their amazing connection with our individual birthdays was a
secret kept by the Order of the Magi for thousands of years and
revealed only when the time was finally
right.
The
science of the cards is based on the combined influences of astrology
and numerology. Robert Camp describes it as a system of
self-understanding and prediction, with the same function as astrology,
but much easier to learn and more readily available. You can
learn this system well enough within in an hour to do a significantly
accurate reading for yourself or somebody else. It can be
most easily explained as based on a connection between the cards and
the calendar year. There are 52 cards in a deck, with
thirteen cards assigned to four suits each. Similarly, there
are 52 weeks in a year, which can in turn be divided into four seasons
of approximately thirteen weeks each.
A
Birth Card and a secondary symbol called the Planetary Ruling Card
together represent each day of the year. These cards, and
the relationships between them, can tell you a great deal about your
self and your relations with friends and loved ones.
After
discovering this system and experimenting with it, I found it to be not
only more immediate and accessible than astrology, but in some ways
deeper and more fundamental, as well. Although astrology is
most commonly represented in superficial fashion in the daily
horoscopes published by newspapers and magazines, in fact it involves a
grasp of many factors, including twelve astrological signs, twelve
houses, ten planets, and a number of major aspects that the planets
make with one another. Then there is the necessity of
calculating the exact time of birth to determine the ascendant, which
is crucial in constructing the natal chart, the influence of transiting
planets, progressions, and many other nuances.
I
expressed this to Robert, and he agreed. “Just understanding
astrology on a rudimentary level can be overwhelming for many people,”
he said. “You have to understand what a chart is and what it
looks like. The average person is not going to take the time
to do that. The science of the cards is more
approachable. Of course, you have to pick up a book, read
about it, and learn some new terminology. In an hour or so,
however, you can do a reading that will blow you away. Some
people are hooked right from the beginning. You just have to
look up your card in the back of the Love Cards book to
start reading about yourself. Moreover, armed simply with a
birth date, you can look up the cards of your relatives, friends, and
acquaintances, and learn a great deal about the nature of your
relationships to them. By testing this system in the world,
you can immediately confirm its validity.”
“Can
this system be used to identify states, towns, and cities with which
you’re compatible. In the past, I’ve talked to locational
astrologers who use astrology in order to calculate good places for
people to reside, but it seems to me that such systems are
complex.
“It
is. You really need software to do it. You might
be interested in a book called Moving to Success, by
Rose Murray. She takes the birthdays of all these places,
and you can see how compatible you are with them using the standard
techniques that we use in the Love Cards book for
determining compatibility. Every state has a birthday and
even towns have birthdays. The book contains a lot of this
information.”
 I
tried to feel Robert out about the basic mechanics of this system,
explained in more detail in advanced books that he sells from his Web
site. At the root of it is the most basic spread of the
cards, called the Spiritual Spread, in which the cards are laid out in
seven rows and seven columns. The layout goes upwards
through the four suits — Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, and Spades, starting
with the Ace of Hearts and ending with the King of
Spades. From this it is possible to generate a second
spread, called the Life Spread, by a process called
quadration. By locating one’s Birth Card and Ruling Cards in
these two spreads, it is possible to see a host of relationships and
connections with the other cards almost at a glance. I asked
Robert about the quadration process.
“In
essence,” he explained, “quadration is a process that symbolizes the
transformation from the spiritual plane to the physical
plane. When you move into the world of matter, you’re moving
into a realm of four-dimensional reality. This world has
four seasons, four elements (fire, air, water, and earth), four
directions, and four stages of life (childhood, adolescence, adulthood,
and old age). In the spiritual realm, you don’t have
that. It’s all the unity of God, represented by the
Spiritual Spread, which is in perfect order. That’s not
where we live our lives, however.”
“In
certain religious and spiritual systems,” I suggested, “it is said that
there are four planes — the Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental —
through which one must navigate to reach the pure spiritual
realms. The process of stepping down from the spiritual to
the physical would therefore involve going through four
planes.”
“I’m
sure there are some connections,” Robert replied. “My
experience has been that it’s important to understand each system on
its own merit before you try to make comparisons,
however. For example, a lot of people who are astrologers,
when they learn this system, try to make a direct connection, and when
they can’t find it, they get a little frustrated. It just
doesn’t work that way. Once you learn both systems, you can
find a correlation between them. If I know someone’s
birthday, I can now calculate what their card is in my head, and then I
can guess what you’ll find in their natal chart. Every card
has patterns that are represented in the natal chart. When I
do a reading for someone, I use both tools. Astrology will
tell me one thing, and the cards will tell me
another. Between the two, I have a complete picture of an
individual. They’re very complementary, once you’ve learned
each on their own. It’s when people try to mix them
prematurely that they get all mixed up.”
“Studying
this system,” I commented, “I can’t help but be impressed by how
limited we are. I suppose that’s not a very positive
attitude. We live in a day and age in which we’re told that
we can be anything we want to be, and I don’t exactly hold with
that. I think that we’re in this lifetime we’re dealt a hand
of cards, so to speak, and we simply have a certain degree of freedom
to operate within that framework, to make positive choices, and make
the most of what we’re given. That’s hard to sell to people
who steeped in the ‘be what you want to be’ culture,
however.”
 “I
agree with you,” Robert replied. “In the Hindu culture,
astrologers believe that everything is destined. Not one
thing happens to an individual that cannot be foretold using their
astrology. They also tell you, however, that you have to
act. Although your actions are predestined, you still have
to follow your dharma. Olney Richmond, who wrote the first
book about the science of the cards, also said that life was completely
destined, and that everything that happened to an individual followed
strict mathematical law. Still, the individual has to act on
his or her own behalf.”
“Do some
cards have a higher spiritual potential than other cards?” I
asked. “Personally, I believe in liberation theory — that
it’s possible to get off the cycle of karma and reincarnation, and that
the potential exists for any individual, no matter what their card, to
do that. I’m sure that, under the influence of some cards,
you could expect to have an easier time than under the influence of
others. On the other hand, I tend to think that each card
offers the individual a path to spiritual liberation in this lifetime,
even if some paths are more arduous than others.”
“There’s
this concept that some cards have a more difficult life path than other
cards,” Robert replied. “Your birth card (the Three of
Spades) and my birth card (the Queen of Diamonds) are both in the
Saturn line, so we both have a good deal of Saturn influence in our
karmic makeup. Saturn doesn’t usually show up as a strong
influence unless we have something to correct. Most people
will say that that’s bad. They look at Saturn as a negative
thing. They look at anyone with a strong Saturn influence as
having a difficult life. Yet, some of the most successful
people in the world have been born under those influences.”
“You
suggest in one of your books that the lower number cards are the more
immature — not in a negative sense, but simply in terms of having to go
through more experiences to learn from them.”
“Yes. In
astrology, you’ll find that people who are born in the early degrees of
their sun sign tend to act out the qualities of that sun sign in a more
intense way. They tend to make all the
mistakes. Like a child, they tend to stumble and fall a
lot. They may actually end up walking better than anyone
else, when they’re done.”
“My
mother’s card is the King of Diamonds, and on occasion she has asked me
why I always repeat the same mistakes. I can see that, from
the perspective of a King, she would not understand why that would have
to happen for me.”
“Sure. She’s
accomplished in her suit, and she can see the big picture all the
time. Of course, it’s also difficult for parents to allow
their children to make their own mistakes.”
“One
of the things I liked about the Love Cards book are the little boxes in
which you highlight certain personalities. For the Ten of
Hearts, you had a little section on Michael Jackson, and just as I was
reading that, he was on the news again, giving an
interview. In reading about the Ten of Hearts, it was easy
to see how he exemplifies the qualities of his birth
card. At the same time, however, you can see how karma, the
way he was brought up, his childhood experiences, and his personal
choices in life must have had a huge influence. I’m sure not
everyone born under the Ten of Hearts will have Michael Jackson’s
problems. Just watching him being interviewed, you could see
that he wasn’t telling the truth. It must come from a lack
of self-understanding.”
“Or it
comes from an approach to life that’s become ingrained in
him. The truth doesn’t really mean anything. It’s
what other people want to hear.”
“I’m
sure, however, that the most insincere people still feel that they’re
being sincere, on some level.”
 “Only
if they’ve lied so many times that they don’t know the truth from
reality. How could Michael Jackson admit to the world all
that he is? How could he still expect to be
loved? Every card has a gift, but there is always the
potential to misuse that gift.”
“Another
box in the book highlighted the card for the United States, which is
the Jack of Diamonds. I also noticed that the Planetary
Ruling Card for that date, July 4th, is the King of Clubs, and wondered
if the King of Clubs influence has something to do with the kind of
unbridled authority that we tend to express, as a nation.”
“Negatively
expressed, the King energy is arrogance. We go around trying
to make the world into what we are, or at least we use that as an
excuse for the things we do. We’re trying to save other
countries and turn them into democracies, as if our democracy was so
perfect. When a power card, like a King or an Eight, is the
Planetary Ruling Card, the qualities of the Birth Card tend to get
exaggerated in the individual. The King of Cards is a good
card. It encourages a person to be responsible, to be a
leader. In the hands of a Jack of Diamonds, however, it can
just translate into arrogance. People who have Kings as
Planetary Ruling Cards tend to end up being bossy.
“It’s
unfortunate, but the Jack of Diamonds represents the nature of the
country we live in. The Jack of Diamonds is a creative card,
an entrepreneurial card, but it can also be a liar. We’re
living in a country in which lying is considered to be part of the
program. We can speculate on why the President is doing what
he’s doing, but we just don’t have all the facts. What that
does to me personally is that I don’t have any power in the world, or
over our government. I only have power over a certain small
sphere in my life, which includes my degree of happiness, my degree of
prosperity, what I’m doing day in and day out, and my satisfaction with
life. I have to focus on that, because that’s all I have any
control over. I used to get so upset about politics, but
finally I decided that it was all beyond my control. I was
sitting and reading the news every day, but why wasn’t I making any
news? What was the news about Robert Camp? It
helped me to get back to a place where I could really make a
difference.”
“Since we’re
talking about the Jack of Diamonds, it’s an important card for
me. It’s both my second Karma Card and my Cosmic Lesson
Card. For me, the Jack of Diamonds represents an
entrepreneurial ability that I feel I possess, yet at the same time is
hard for me to develop.
“Well,
our second Karma card is always a gift, and therefore is meant to be
interpreted positively. The quality of the card can be used
negatively, however. The individual always has the freedom
to choose.
"Let's go
back to your Jack of Diamonds card, because it fulfils two functions
for you. Your Birth Card, the Three of Spades, is an
artist’s card. As a Three of Spades, your life gets
scattered in many directions. The Jack of Diamonds, however,
gives you the ability to promote what you create. This is
what allows the Three of Spades to become a successful
artist. There are artists, and then there are successful
artists. The successful artists are the ones who learn how
to market themselves. The Jack of Diamonds gives you an
innate ability in that respect.”
"So
far, I haven’t been able to do that,” I confessed, “but I’m aware that
I have to learn how to do that. Part of the reason that I
haven’t been able to do that so far has to do with my family
background. My parents were professional people who didn’t
have to sell themselves or their services. Entrepreneurial
ability wasn’t part of our family ethic. I spent a long time
following the path of my family ethic, rather than my own
path. As my second Karma Card, I can see that the Jack of
Diamonds gives me the ability. I can sense that I have that
ability. As my Cosmic Lesson card, however, I can also sense
urgency in this matter. This is something that I have to do
in order to fulfill my destiny. Perhaps this is why those
who have the Three of Spades as a Birth Card are so artistically
motivated. As you said, it’s not just a matter of having
artistic ability, but also of being driven to see that ability
recognized and appreciated.”
 “Well,
I’m telling you, you don’t really have to learn how to promote
yourself. You already know. I think that once you
begin to do any promotion work, it’ll be as if you’ve been doing it
your whole life. The reasons that you’re not promoting
yourself have to do with other reasons you’ve mentioned, such as your
family. Your Planetary Ruling Card may be the key to
this. It’s the Nine of Hearts. You also have to
consider that. It’s very important. We often tend
to identify more strongly with our Planetary Ruling Card than with our
Birth Card. The Nine of Hearts is
compassionate. People under the influence of the Nine of
Hearts think about other people in their decision
making. They have a soft heart for other people’s
suffering. If you feel other people’s pain so much, you may
not choose to do things that you feel would hurt others, although it
would be the best thing for you. So, if striking out on your
own artistic or entrepreneurial career is something that would cause
consternation to your family, you may choose not to do that because of
the discomfort that you would feel with their discomfort.”
"That’s
true. I sacrificed many years taking care of my
parents. On the other hand, I suppose you could say that if
I had been more successful, they would have been even
happier. What can I say? I made that choice.”
"You
made a choice to take care of them, and do the things that you thought
they wanted you to do. Maybe that wasn’t the best thing for
you. It didn’t really help you get a sense of your own
strength or power, but it’s not too late for you to try something new,
at this point in your life.”
“Since
we’re talking about my family, I might as well give you a brief rundown
on my family members. I’m the Three of Spades, my father was
the Eight of Spades, my sister is the Nine of Diamonds, and my mother
is the King of Diamonds. Now, if you look at the Life
Spread, there’s an interesting pattern there. The Three of
Spades is sandwiched on a diagonal line between the Eight of Spades and
the Nine of Spades. That yields a mutual Mercury connection
between me and my father and between me and my sister, as well as a
mutual Venus connection between my father and sister and, on the other
diagonal, between me and my mother. I wonder if you run into
that a lot.”
“There’s always a
significant pattern like that with every family. It varies,
however. There are many families in which everyone is the
same number, such as all Sixes or all Nines. Even more
commonly, they all belong to the same suit. That’s very
common.”
“Well, in my family, if
you take all our Birth Cards and all our Planetary Ruling Cards—eight
cards in all—they are all Spades or Diamonds with one exception, that
being my Planetary Ruling Card, which is that Nine of
Hearts. It’s the only Heart, or emotional, element in the
whole family, and I’m sandwiched right between them all. In
some way, things are really concentrated on me, in this family.”
“Yes. To
a certain extent, you’re the focal point in the family. Was
your father an Aquarius?”
“That’s right. My mother,
as well.”
“That means his Planetary Ruling Card was the Three of Spades.”
“You’re correct.”
 “There
you have the karmic transfer from the father to son. You’re
just like your father in many ways. At the same time, your
mother’s Planetary Ruling Card is the Six of Diamonds, and that’s your
first Karma Card. You’re all very strongly
connected. One of the great things about this system is that
you can go into a situation in which there are all these connections,
and really tell the story of the dynamics between all the members of
the family. You can see the karmic links that really explain
what happened in your childhood. With this system, you can
use these cards to tell the story of your childhood so that it all
makes sense in a new way. You ended up being the caretaker,
because the Nine of Hearts is your Planetary Ruling
Card. Your sister, as the Nine of Diamonds, is probably
doing some care taking, too.”
“That’s
true. Right now, my mother has a new boyfriend, and a Jack
of Spades, which is on the same diagonal. If you look at the
Life Spread, the Three of Spades, King of Diamonds, and Jack of Spades
form a perfect triangle, so there’s a whole new dynamic that has
apparently formed there. He wants to get to know me, but I
don’t want to get to know him. I’m happy that he’s with my
mom, but I just want them to keep it to themselves. I don’t
want to be drawn into it at all.”
“Well,
the good thing is that we can choose our relationships. The
books that I write may say that you’re compatible or not compatible
with a given person, but ultimately you get to make the
choices. When I meet someone whose Birth Card is my Karma
Card, the card that I owe something to, I always decide consciously if
I’m going to invest myself in that. I don’t just assume I
have to, just because of the Karma Card connection. That’s a
common misconception. When people read my books, they think
that even if the person is abusive, they have to be with them because
of the Karma Card connection. Your mother might want you to
approve of her boyfriend, but that’s not really your
business. You need to let her know that you’re not doing
that for her. You’re no longer six years old.”
“Yes,
but it’s hard. She’s that King of Diamonds, and I feel she
exercises a lot of power over me.”
“It’s
hard because you always want people to feel good. That’s the
real problem. That Nine of Hearts has a kind of tendency
toward co-dependency, trying to keep everybody happy. Maybe
you need to divorce your family for five years, go somewhere where they
don’t even know where you are, and get your artistic career off the
ground. That would be good therapy for you.”
I
asked Robert to what extent anyone had ever tried to apply this system
to a dating service. “Is that an unreasonable proposition?”
I wanted to know.
“Oh, no,” he
replied. “We’ve had the idea of setting up a dating service
based on this for a long time. It hasn’t gone anywhere yet,
but I don’t doubt that it will happen one day. I use it in
all my relationships. It doesn’t necessarily mean that I
will choose differently, but at least I know what I’m
choosing. A dating service based on this model would require
considerable thought and investment, however.”
“The
potential to do some good for people is also there, I would
think. Let’s face it. Not that many people will
take the time to study these books, and when you think about how
difficult it is for some people to form relationships, a system like
this could definitely help.”
“Well,
I can relate to what you’re saying. I wouldn’t be doing this
work if I didn’t feel I was helping people. I like the money
part of it, but money has never been enough for me. The fact
that this work is helping others is what makes it possible for me to
continue doing it. It’s for me to think that people are
getting a positive benefit from it every day.”
I
ended my phone conversation with Robert Camp on that
note. Looking back on it, I was impressed with what he had
said about the influence of my Planetary Ruling Card, the Nine of
Hearts, on my role in my family. For him, it had most likely
been a matte-of-fact observation, based simply on years of experience
in studying the cards and understanding their effects on
individuals. For me, however, it had given me a little extra
bit of insight into my nature, and that was indeed, a benefit. |
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Date Submitted:
1/2/04 |
Copyright Information:
Copyright © The Spiritual Traveler, 2003 |
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